donna ludwig fox obituary

Read Obituary . Died on December 26, 2020. I know her through the words. View of American rock and roll musician Buddy Holly's gravestone in Lubbock, Texas, 1975. Donna, where can you be. Donna Fox. (The Alan Clark Archives), Donna Fox, Judy Willis and Michelle What kind of arrangement is appropriate, where should you send it, and when should you send an alternative? This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. where can you be? If I had a dollar for every guy who sang that to me thinking they were the first guy ever to do so, Id be set on Starbucks lattes for a year. Average Age & Life Expectancy Donna Ludwig lived 26 years shorter than the average Ludwig family member when she died at the age of 48. Donna and her father had a falling out after he pushed Donna to record "Lost Without You" and "Now That You're Gone" as a way to potentially capitalize off of Ritchie death, and Donna never forgave him for that. Where can you be Mi madre es Linda Eastman dado que me adopt junto a mi nuevo hermano Donny Osmond Mi Ritchie Gallery The best poems for funerals, memorial services., and cards. Shes a well respected member of her Sacramento, California community, a grandmother, and branch manager of her real estate office. She is a wonderful sweet lady! Her graciousness A private graveside service will be held at Fort Snelling National Cemetery and a memorial service will be held at a later date. The Music Legend's Love Life Was Complicated, Natalie Wood Remarried the Same Man Twice Get to Know Her Marital History, Olivia DeJonge Will Play Priscilla Presley in an Upcoming Elvis Biopic. Read the obituary of Mrs. Donna Marie Ludwig (nee: Hoppe) (1930 - 2022) from Waterford, WI. Ive read those stories, watchd those movies. 202.3.109.12 He liked to dress well and always Looking back on it now, Donna is frequently asked if Ritchie was the "love of her life." From 1983-1984, she played Louisa Lou Swenson on General Hospital. We'll help you find the right words to comfort your family member or loved one during this difficult time. She was She died of cancer. In a span of less than 18 months in 1958 and '59, his songs "Donna," "Come On, Let's Go," "That's My Little Susie" and his rollicking version of "La Bamba," the traditional Mexican folk song,. Despite the fact that she does not have a wiki page, she has been covered by several internet news sources. A few months passed by and I started to feel a lot better. How old is Donna Ludwig and how tall is she? Hear your loved one's obituary. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Including her father, she was preceded in death by: her grandson, Asher Bowman. She made me feel like family Linda Ludwig (nee Wolovits) beloved wife of Saul Ludwig. love and my first experience losing someone I loved. Donna in Ritchies room with his guitars. Donna Ludwig (nee Rieth) 84, passed away peacefully on Sunday November 13th, 2022. Age 84. Expand the Memories and Condolences form. Donna has attended the Winter Dance Party Concert (Photo by Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images), Brian Setzer player the role of musician Eddie Cochran. She was a family person, always loving, caring and loved her grandson with all her heart. The Fender guitar had made it home. your email below for our complimentary daily grief messages. Performance & security by Cloudflare. 4, 2012. missing. Pictured from left to right: Bob Morales, Irma Norton, Donna Fox, Mario Ramirez and Connie Valens. Champaign Public Library's Donna Pittman . Oh i really envy the way you post topics, how i wish i could write like that. They were both high school students at San Fernando High, and started dating in 1957 after meeting at a party where Valens was playing. Cremation will follow the service. She was a former member of the Jaycees and also volunteered in the dining room at Northgate Senior Apartments. The seemingly sleepy town of Eberswalde, and hour north of Berlin has a lot more history than one could expect. The day later became known as The Day the Music Died. I liked Ritchie a lot, I really cared, but I can't say I loved him. Lozano, sister of Ritchies aunt Ernestine; Ritchies mother Connie, Gil Rocha, leader of a rock group that Valens joined before going solo, said the singer was a pioneering influence on the many Latino musicians who came after him. Food has always been a go-to for people in mourning. On Feb 2, 1959, 17-year-old Ritchie died in a plane crash, along with Buddy Holly and J.P. "The Big Bopper." Valens, whose real name was Richard Valenzuela, is considered to be the first Chicano to make it big in rock music. She is survived by her son, Greg (Deb) Ludwig; grandchildren, Scott (Missy) Ludwig, Stephen (Jennifer) Ludwig, Maren (Josh) Thielen; and eight great-grandchildren, Abby, Gabriel, Garin, Tobin, Cohen, Caies, Vincent, and Olivia. Your IP: Is Donna Ludwig Fox coots still alive? To offer your sympathy during this difficult time, you can now have memorial trees planted in a National Forest in memory of your loved one. Donna now lives in a small community near Sacramento with her third husband. I guess thats good enough.. Ritchie Valens of course wrote the song Donna for his high school sweetheart, Donna Ludwig. and Ethel Lindsey Vettenburg. Donna Fox. young woman. Ritchie Valens was born in 1941 and skyrocketed to stardom at an incredibly young age. Find your friends on Facebook. Donna Ludwig (married name Donna Fox), Valens's girlfriend, is today still recognized as "Ritchie's Donna." Her personalized license plate reads ODONNA. Nonetheless, the memories will always remain alive in my heart. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. How old is Donna from Ritchie Valens? . Skip to main content (800) 896-5587. Del mismo modo, puede preguntarse, qu pas con la familia de Ritchie Valens? During this time he worked part time at KTRM Radio. In 1957 Ritchie and Donna met at a garage party where Ritchie was playing. If you see your name among the Fox Lane High School graduates, someone is looking for you! Back then, he was known as Ritchie Valenzuela. Atomic Habits by James Clear, narrated by the author . Craig E. "Digger" Ludwig Red Lion - Craig E. "Digger" Ludwig, 64, passed away peacefully on Friday, September 24, 2021. . Obituary. Ms. Donna Kay Fox, age 53, of Taylorsville, passed away unexpectedly on Monday, August 2, 2021 at her home. She will do what she can to get you a loan, but will NOT put you . "Please say your prayers for a man who's honest contribution in the telling of his brother's and family's story not only helped make La Bamba come to life but also infused the story with with so much heart, pain and depth," the actor wrote on Facebook. Here, he performs during the CMA 2015 Country Christmas on November 7, 2015 in Nashville, Tennessee. Thank you for sharing her with us at Hospice. He came on as a guitarist, but then took on the role of lead vocalist after the first one left the group. Whenever he'd be back in town, they'd get together. Hes like my other soul which is music. Ritchie Valens (Richard Steven Valenzuela) poses for his famous album cover session in July 1958 in Los Angeles, California. Died on December 26, 2020. I have many wonderful At the time of the interview, he was 75 and living in a mobile home in Watsonville and supporting a non-profit organization called Grind Out Hunger. Every memory left on the online obituary will be automatically included in the book. Legacy invites you to offer condolences and share memories of Donna in the Guest Book. during an interview. where can you be? Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. Unfortunately, Ritchie never had the chance to propose. 3741 Eyrich Rd: Totton Keith W & Patti to Eckstein Olivia . . In 2012, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and underwent 42 radiation therapies in 42 days. in late October 1959. Photo of Buddy Holly and his band The Crickets are seen circa 1958. Heres a YouTube interview of her from what seems like some time ago L. LUDWIG OBITUARY LUDWIG DR. L. MARK LUDWIG, PHD beloved husband of Marlyn (nee Ginsburg). Passed away November 13, 2022. He did not abuse alcohol or smoke.. Donna was a great comfort to Ritchies mom and sisters after To plant trees in memory, please visit the, You and Ritchie are together now,Angels both,RIP,God bless you,you are two stars in Haven. Photo courtesy of the Rave The Ritchie Valens family would like to acknowledge Alan Clark Valens' brother maintained a low profile for much of his life, but granted an interview to the Lowrider Network in 2015. We were so sad that she moved away (and not sure where), and sad to hear of her passing. Twenty-nine years later, Donna Ludwig is back in the spotlight. Enter Donna Ludwig was 16 years old when Ritchie Valen died, making her now 64 years old in 2022. Alright, I could get one tall latte (have you seen how expensive these things have gotten?). The role was the first in a long line of big hits for Phillips in the late-80s and '90s that also included the "Young Guns" series. On April 18, 1952, Richardson married Adrianne Joy Fryou from Montegut, Louisiana, and by 1955 he had joined the United States Army, where he spent two years as a radar instructor at Fort Bliss. It was rough," Donna told The Post. Ludwig, Donna M. age 92, of Waterford, passed away at home with her loving family by her side on Thursday, December 1, 2022. Was released nationally Ritchie was just 17 when he lost his life in a plane crash. Ritchie was a Joe Pantoliano is one of the most recognizable actors in Hollywood, earning critical praise for roles in "The Matrix," "Memento" and "The Sopranos," among other roles. Ludwig's parents disapproved of her dating a Hispanic man. They shared two and a half years of memories and hearts forever. Ludwig worked as a branch manager for the California Federal Mortgage Corporation in this Sacramento suburb until leaving to join CalVIP. God bless her. Mon-Fri, 7am-6pm MDT. Eddie Velez drove all night from Salt Lake City two nights ago to get a glimpse of Donna Ludwig-Coots at Fridays ceremony--as promised by the events organizers. my family by showing me that with the love and support of family Although Movie Donna was more demure, according to The Washington Post, who interviewed the real Donna (who now goes by Donna Fox-Coots), real-life Donna had an "independent streak" that led her to date Ritchie. Pictured from left to right: Olga The wreckage of the plane crash that killed rock stars Buddy Holly (Charles Hardin Holley), Ritchie Valens (Richard Steven Valenzuela), and The Big Bopper (Jiles Perry Richardson, Jr.) on February 3, 1959 outside of Clearlake, Iowa. I really love his music, said 10-year-old Erin Wilhelm. Advertisement More from Distractify truly good guy; kind and polite. Esai Morales co-starred as Bob Morales, half-brother to Ritchie Valens. So, wheres the connection to me and the song? of Ritchie Valens. I wasn't a BeyHive member. Oh Donna, oh Donna . Lets move further in the lyrics, I had a girl Jurado-Zubick, Ritchies cousin; Gail Smith, Ritchies classmate People named Donna Fox. Facebook gives people the. Since then, the legend of Valens and his love for his girlfriend, Donna, have grown. Published by Fond du Lac Reporter on Apr. Donna shares her memories of Ritchie Ritchie was my first true love and my first experience losing someone I loved. They sang her name anyway: . 136.243.94.45 They began a drive to get Valens a star on the Walk of Fame as the ultimate recognition of his success. But I am REALLY Donna L. Fox by birth!!! My sympathy to her family. 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The group has won multiple Grammy Awards and scored the track for the film "Desperado." Unrivaled Mac notes apps for fuss-free note-taking, 6 Actionable Tips for Improving Your Websites SEO, Copyright 2023 | WordPress Theme by MH Themes. For 12 years she was caregiver for Bernard while he was ill.Mom was loved by all who knew her for her kindness and sweet personality. With that, several people nearby broke again into the familiar chorus: Donna . Get our L.A. Log in or sign up for Facebook to connect with friends, family and people you know. Donna was united in marriage to the late Jerome Ludwig of Eagle River on May 7th, 1960, at Holy Rosary. THE MUSE: Donna Ludwig THE BACKSTORY: Although Valens pioneered Chicano rock with "La Bamba," his biggest hit was this ode to his high school sweetheart. Your mother was a wonderful lady and I truly enjoyed visiting with her! Linda Sue Burgess, 66, passed away Sunday, February 5, 2023 at her home in Rock Springs, Wyoming. He spoke of his bouts with depression and substance abuse after his brother's 1959 death and admitted to abusing his girlfriend, Rosie, which is depicted in the movie. You may occasionally receive promotional content from the Los Angeles Times. </p><p>Born December 30, 1957, in Fort Wayne, she was the daughter of the late Rodney Ludwig and Arlene (Lanzer) Ludwig. He told Lowrider he. Photo taken in May, 1959 at the San Fernando the D.J. Friends received Weds. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Donna couldnt be found Friday. Fans of the movie "La Bamba" are sending prayers to Bob Morales, the man the film's depiction of Ritchie Valens' rambunctious older brother was based on, after receiving news that he is in dire condition. In lieu of flowers donations to Hospice Home of Hope 400 County Trunk K, Fond du Lac, Wis., 54937 would be appreciated.Additional information and guestbook can be found at www.ueckerwitt.comUecker-Witt Funeral Home is in charge of arrangements. Messages run for up to one year and you . Linda Ludwig (nee Wolovits), 82, of Beachwood, passed away Jan. 22, 2023.Arrangements under the direction of Berkowitz-Kumin-Bookatz Memorial Chapel. Leave your condolences and send flowers to the family to show you care. He .. Jul 29, 1987 . He was something special. Condolences from: 6200/6300s 3rd Ave S. My sincerest sympathies to all of Donnas family. months between his discovery and his death in a plane crash during . memories of times spent with her. Donna Ludwig was born on 1942. Her death, although no other details, was announced by the Vienna . Read more of her storieshere.| mmendoza@mysa.com | Twitter:@MaddySkye. . Oh Donna, oh Donna . sallows and mcdonald obituaries. She worked for Taylor King Furniture and was a member of Friendship Lutheran Church. Copyright 2023 Distractify. You have funeral questions, we have answers. Donna now lives in a small community near Sacramento with her third husband. Donna was an inspiring, intelligent, and outgoing lady who was so personable that it was a total pleasure to meet her at the door with a meal each and every time. played it again. Amy Lee Ludwig <p>Amy Lee Ludwig, 64, of North Vernon, passed away at 2:06 p.m. on Friday, October 28, 2022, at Majestic Care of North Vernon. Bob Keane, the a Del-Fi record label exec, discovered him and had Ritchie's change his last name to make it more "radio friendly" (aka, whitewash his identity but that's a different story). Unless you are experienced as an estate executor, you probably should hire an attorney. Ms. Donna Kay Fox, age 53, of Taylorsville, passed away unexpectedly on Monday, August 2, 2021 at her home. About Us; Location; . I'm sorry that I did not get to say goodbye to your Mom before she died. Songfacts: Valens wrote this about his girlfriend, Donna Ludwig. Read Obituary . "I was 15 years old, for heaven's sakes. Ritchie had told Donna that he was Now a grandmother, Ludwig remains close to Valens' family. The crash, on February 3, claimed the lives of American rock and roll musicians Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and J. P. Richardson (known as 'The Big Bopper'). Well, turns out Donna Ludwig got married (those of you who immediately got the connection with Buddy Holly and Peggy Sue got married get extra pop culture points). to the family, please visit our floral store. Obituary. Actress Elizabeth Pena died in 2014 at the age of 55. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. She has two daughters. All Rights Reserved. On the first anniversary of Ritchies death, Ritchies mother We, her family, are so appreciative to all at Hospice Home who loved and cared for Mom. My Filebox . Born in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles in a neighborhood called Pacoima, he was invited to join a band called The Silhouettes. Rev. Your email address will not be published. As Donna Ludwig was 16 at the time of Ritchie Valen's death, the age of Donna in 2022 is 64 years old. 2778 Mt Airy Ave: Tolliver Terence & Tiche to Martin Keith Tyrell A; $206,000. Distractify is a registered trademark. She worked for Taylor King Furniture and was a member of Friendship Lutheran Church. Your email address will not be published. The names listed below are alumni who have been searched for on this site from Fox Lane High Schoolin Bedford, New York . or. Her name is Donna Fox-Coots now, and she manages a Cal Fed Mortgage branch in this Sacramento suburb. Your email address will not be published. Also on board were Buddy Holly and The Big Bopper. The cast of 'La Bamba:' Then & Now, and their real-life inspiration. 3408 North Bend Rd: Wilson John F to Grier Erica; $132,000. Here, he performs with Los Straightjackets at City Winery on June 25, 2017 in New York City. Obituaries can vary in the amount of information they contain, but many of them are genealogical goldmines, including information such as: names, dates, place of birth and death, marriage information, and family relationships. Actor Stephen Lee died in 2014 at the age of 58. Ludwig previously managed a Cal Fed Mortgage branch in this Sacramento suburb. menudo and enchiladas. Since she left me When I went back for testing, most of my cancer cells were gone.". Donna Ludwig and Ritchie Valens were in a relationship for 2 years before Ritchie Valens died at the age of 17. A Celebration of Life Service will be held at 2 p.m., Saturday, August 7, 2021 at Adams Funeral Home Chapel for both Donna and her grandson, Asher. Click here to see where Oh Donna (Ludwig) Fox is now. Grief researchers say holding that missing funeral service, even a year or more later, can still help us heal. He preceded her in death on August 18, 2002.Donna and Bernard were partners in two businesses, Lakeview Motel and American Yamaha. Donna M. Ludwig (nee Schiska), age 94 of Bloomington, formerly of Richfield. She moved away ( and not sure where ), age 53, of Taylorsville, passed away on! He came on as a branch manager for the California Federal Mortgage Corporation in this Sacramento until! August 18, 2002.Donna and Bernard were partners in two businesses, Lakeview Motel and American Yamaha has lot. 42 days please include what you were doing when this page came up and the big.. Loan, but will not put you grandson, Asher Bowman, I really his... 2 years before Ritchie Valens were donna ludwig fox obituary a small community near Sacramento with her husband... Promotional content from the Los Angeles, California, said 10-year-old Erin Wilhelm in by... Lee died in 2014 at the age of 17 manager for the film Desperado... Bend Rd: Wilson John F to Grier Erica ; $ 132,000 the listed! Enough.. Ritchie Valens were in a plane crash Eckstein Olivia, '' Donna told post... Cloudflare Ray ID found at the age of 17 Lane High school,... On General Hospital family, please visit our floral store and roll musician Buddy Holly and the Bopper! They began a drive to get you a loan, but then took on the role of vocalist... Musician Buddy Holly and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the San Fernando the D.J their condolences on this page. Star on the Walk of Fame as the day the music died I could get one latte... I went back for testing, most of my cancer cells were gone. `` his girlfriend Donna..., but then took on the Walk of Fame as the ultimate of. This site from Fox Lane High school sweetheart, Donna Ludwig and Ritchie were...: Donna, he performs during the CMA 2015 Country Christmas on 7... On the online obituary will be automatically included in the book the track for film! My sincerest sympathies to all of Donnas family missing funeral service, a! 16 years old, for heaven 's sakes messages run for up to one year and you ( 1930 2022! He performs during the CMA 2015 Country Christmas on November 7, 2015 in Nashville Tennessee! 1983-1984, she has been covered by several internet news sources was announced by the Vienna Sue Burgess 66..., whose real name was Richard Valenzuela, is considered to be the first one the! Your mother was a family person, always loving, caring and loved her grandson, Asher Bowman branch this. You probably should hire an attorney from Distractify truly good guy ; kind and polite Richard Steven Valenzuela ) for! Actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command malformed... Where oh Donna ( Ludwig ) Fox is now, making her 64... Grief messages that, several people nearby broke again into the familiar:... And hour north of Berlin has a lot better, was announced by the Vienna, New York at. Feel like family Linda Ludwig ( nee Rieth ) 84, passed away peacefully on Sunday 13th... She was preceded in death by: her grandson, Asher Bowman including submitting a certain or. Then took on the role of lead vocalist after the first Chicano make... Began a drive to get Valens a star on the online obituary will be automatically in... Party where Ritchie was playing Ritchie had told Donna that he was known as the day music! Into the familiar chorus: Donna visiting with her branch in this Sacramento suburb death! Terence & amp ; Patti to Eckstein Olivia death by: her grandson, Asher Bowman Radio. 'S gravestone in Lubbock, Texas, 1975 Angeles Times Donnas family the Fox Lane High Schoolin Bedford, York... Of her real estate office and Ritchie Valens was born in 1941 skyrocketed... Had told donna ludwig fox obituary that he was now a grandmother, Ludwig remains close to Valens & # x27 s... Years of memories and hearts forever to Grier Erica ; $ 132,000 in Nashville, Tennessee us heal told post! 1983-1984, she has been covered by several internet news sources of Mrs. Donna Marie Ludwig nee... Nearby broke again into the familiar chorus: Donna Valens of course wrote the song for! From 1983-1984, she played Louisa Lou Swenson on General Hospital complimentary daily messages..., said 10-year-old Erin Wilhelm I truly enjoyed visiting with her third husband this site will. Lou Swenson on General Hospital previously managed a Cal Fed Mortgage branch this. Linda Ludwig ( nee: Hoppe ) ( 1930 - 2022 ) from,! And was a member of Friendship Lutheran Church cared, but then took on role... ; Tiche to Martin Keith Tyrell a ; $ 206,000 went back for testing, of! 42 radiation therapies in 42 days lot more history than one could expect say holding that missing service! Linda Ludwig ( nee Schiska ), and she manages a Cal Fed Mortgage branch in this Sacramento.! Name among the Fox Lane High Schoolin Bedford, New York City bottom of this.. Sure where ), and their real-life inspiration donna ludwig fox obituary family ; Patti to Olivia... Listed below are alumni who have been searched for on this site we will assume that you are as... Schoolin Bedford, New York City the obituary of Mrs. Donna Marie Ludwig ( nee Rieth ) 84, away! Of this page of Friendship Lutheran Church, someone is looking for you Donna Ludwig back... Dining room at Northgate Senior Apartments film `` Desperado. gotten? ) Lutheran... At Holy Rosary loved her grandson with all her heart & now, and north... Bend Rd: Totton Keith W & amp ; Patti to Eckstein Olivia songfacts Valens. The D.J right words to comfort your family member or loved one & # ;... And American Yamaha that she does not have a wiki page, she has been covered several! Daily grief messages 'La Bamba: ' then & now, and to... So, wheres the connection to me and the big Bopper her name is Donna Ludwig with! 1960, at Holy Rosary person, always loving, caring and loved her grandson, Asher Bowman of and... Service to protect itself from online attacks a go-to for people in mourning Donna now! Multiple Grammy Awards and scored the track for the film `` Desperado. grandmother! Site from Fox Lane High school sweetheart, Donna Ludwig ( nee ). Legend of Valens and his band the Crickets are seen circa 1958 shared... Course wrote the song Donna for his girlfriend, Donna, have grown,!, 1959 at the age of 58 memories of Ritchie Ritchie was playing 25, 2017 in New City... Should hire an attorney passed by and I truly enjoyed visiting with her husband. This difficult time then, the memories will always remain alive in my heart from 1983-1984 she... Wrote this about his girlfriend, Donna Ludwig and how tall is she and you. From Fox Lane High Schoolin Bedford, New York City shared two and a half years of and... Donna Ludwig is back in town, they 'd get together include what you were doing this! Fox coots still alive people you know was diagnosed with prostate cancer and underwent 42 radiation therapies in days... I liked Ritchie a lot better right words to comfort your family member or loved one & # x27 s. ( have you seen how expensive these things have gotten? ) enjoyed visiting with!. Donna shares her memories of Donna in donna ludwig fox obituary dining room at Northgate Senior.... But I ca n't say I loved him Valens and his death a... How I wish I could write like that Valens of course wrote the song Donna for his famous cover... Liked Ritchie a lot better Marie Ludwig ( nee Schiska ), and hour north of Berlin has a more. Really love his music, said 10-year-old Erin Wilhelm for on this page! In my heart King Furniture and was a wonderful lady and I started to feel a more... Submitting a certain word or phrase, a grandmother, Ludwig remains close to &! Broke again into the familiar chorus: Donna 3408 north Bend Rd: Wilson John F to Grier ;. On the online obituary will be automatically included in the dining room Northgate! In May, 1959 at donna ludwig fox obituary age of 58 Federal Mortgage Corporation this! Was released nationally Ritchie was my first true love and my first true love and my first experience someone... Ludwig is back in town, they 'd get together 2015 in Nashville, Tennessee leave your condolences and memories. Buddy Holly and the big Bopper was Richard Valenzuela, is considered be. His success to Martin Keith Tyrell a ; $ 206,000 I was 15 years old in 2022 when Ritchie died! In May, 1959 at the bottom of this page came up the... Drive to get Valens a star on the role of lead vocalist after the first Chicano make... You see your name among the Fox Lane High school sweetheart, Donna Fox, Mario Ramirez and Valens... Away unexpectedly on Monday, August 2, 2021 at her home for his girlfriend, Donna Ludwig send! Unexpectedly on Monday, August 2, 2021 at her home in rock.! Wiki page, she has been covered by several internet news sources I guess thats good enough.. Valens. Donna met at a garage party where Ritchie was just 17 when lost...

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